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How to enclose back patio?

Hello,

We have done some minor DIY eg installed new kitchen and laundry (mostly flat packs), built some draws ourselves for custom fit etc.. But this project is more complicated.

Provided we get council approval, we would like to enclose the open wall of the back patio (raised section attached to house), as we have a sleepout type room that opens onto this, but isn't really used much because you have to go outside to access it. We have recently started a family so the extra space on patio could also serve as a safe playroom etc.

So thinking timber frame the areas between the metal posts, install sliding door and sliding aluminium windows (2nd hand) to cover most of area. Just wanted advice on a few problems;

- The existing roof doesn't cover the whole patio area, at the end there is an awkward area. I am not sure how to handle enclosing this corner

- Should we repair the concrete at the base of the poles (still very secure), and if so, how?

- Also any other tips on framing, window/door installation, insulation of ceiling (if possible?), or exterior cladding, would be great. The sun hits this area in the afternoon and is hot in summer, so I would probably install blinds to exterior but any other ideas would help

Feeling a bit over our heads but keen to get this to work!

Thank you

Looking northLooking southNorth side (roof doesn't cover whole area)Pole/concrete support

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Comments

EricL

Hello @motherdough

Welcome to the Bunnings Workshop community. It's sensational to have you join us, and thanks for sharing your question about how to enclose a back patio.

Let me try to answer some of your questions.

I propose lining up the wall to where the steel bearer is which I believe is also in line with the brick wall. This will save you from having to make any structural changes on the floor and roof. thereby saving you money as all you have to do is to build a wall in line with your brick wall.
I suggest patching the damaged pole footing with concrete so that it looks nice.
Make sure to install insulation and take into account the possibility of installing an aircon unit in the room. I recommend an ordinary door and very large windows so that there will be good airflow.

I suggest engaging the services of a draftsperson and asking them to draw a framing plan. They will be familiar with the rules and regulations of your local council. They will be aware of the rules on how far the wall can extend on that concrete base. As to the complicated end of your wall, I propose keeping it simple and staying in the boundary of the patio ceiling.

Let me call on our experienced members @Dave-1 and @Nailbag for their recommendations.

If you need further assistance, please let us know.

Eric

Dave-1

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/42537#Comment_42537

Evening @motherdough

Gaining some space would be nice 🙂 Definently doable but id check with the council as you say first.

I have repaired concrete segments/cracks on my pation like yours this way Concrete patio repair

Considering the posts support the roof I am a little hesitant about trusting it to the level of only the posts carrying the weight of your roof into the future. I do trust concretemate and the screws I am suggestion, just dont know enought to say "yeah it will carry"

I would frame up the new wall and in doing so I would include teh ability for it to carry your roof. That way you get the repair and the knowledge that its strong enough to carry the load. You could install new structual posts first, then remove the old ones (mainly because the base dosnt look support underneath) Repair the concrete and then finish the framing out.

My sunroom at the back of my house was a former exposed patio area I am pretty sure of. It slopes 😲 I didnt realise that until I went to install some shelve on the wall and measured from the floor up and then checked with a level lol So Id check your floor and make accomadations if needed. It was sloped so water runs off naturally.

Considering the area gets hot and you are goingto activly use the room I would remve the ceiling lineing, instal insulation bats /any changes to lighting and then a new ceiling installed.

I would also go the route of insulating the any new walls and I like your idea of cladding them.

Some questions.

-I was just going over the pics and noticed that switchbox? near the rear door with a blue lid. Is it a switchbox? If so it will need moving maybe.

-The windows to the bathroom and toilet will exit into the newly closed area. You will need exhausts to outside to cover that issue otherwise you will end up with condensation problems and maybe pongy ones as well 🙂

-The old ceiling that I suggested to be removed and replaced looks like it may be fibro, if so it probarly has asbestos in it. Test it and then get a professional to remove it. I know that the fines have increased for dodgy disposals of material so would make sure the company you use is valid.

I would love to see your conversion as a project 🙂 It would be pretty interesting to see how you convert it. Never to many photos 🙂

Dave

MitchellMc

Hi @motherdough,

I share @dave1's concerns about the poles and the damage to the concrete at their base. Both poles have the same damage. Did someone break this area away to have a look at how far the posts enter the slab or did this happen by itself? Not only is the concrete broken away at the front but the sandstone (?) underneath looks to be deteriorating too.

I'd encourage you to enlist the services of a professional to repair the foundation at the posts or have the posts replaced.

Mitchell

Nailbag

Hi @motherdough

There are a number of issues/concerns that my fellow braintrusts have already highlighted. In addition there is the floor level to be addressed, though not a structural issue, it would need to be built over to level.

The project though very achievable has a lot of advanced building aspects. so, my first point of call would be to enlist the services of a draftsperson if you were thinking of doing it yourself/project manage. They will be able to produce a structural design that takes in to consideration your purpose needs and building requirements to be submitted to council for approval. Otherwise get a few quotes from "registered" local builders as they have both the qualifications and skills to work through the issues, and handle the project start to finish.

It will be after working with either of these two services that a more defined plan of attack outcome can be acheived.

Nailbag

motherdough

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/83374#Comment_83374

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your suggestions/advice. Apologies about delay getting back - baby just makes life busy. To answer your questions, the box you see is our solar inverter, fine to stay there, shouldn't be an issue.

Good point about the bathroom/laundry/wc windows! I hadn't thought of this. We do have exhaust in bathroom but may require more ventilation.

Old ceiling - that is a shame to hear but good to know, hadn't considered it could be asbestos, the plaster ceiling internally in the house are the older horse hair stuff, so we were thinking it would be the same, but it is possible there were post built renovations that used other materials. Upon looking at it, probably is and will get tested. Yes, if positive we would definitely do removal professional with a baby around!

Or another option, would it be possible to frame it up as is somehow (safely), drop it 100-200mm, add insulation, then layer of plaster to finish, to avoid touching the asbestos or something?

Few other things to note - we have recently cleaned and painted the concrete floor with a Rustoleum concrete/garage primer/paint in grey. When cleaning it with hose the water did pool in places and while it wasn't deep, it wasn't draining, I pushed most off with a broom and dried within reasonably short time. But thinking this could be a problem if there was some water ingress/leak once the conversion is complete. What would be the best way to level the floor, or would it not be necessary?

The other I should've mentioned earlier - we are probably looking at timeline of about 5 years here before selling, definitely <7 due to property being subdivisible and desire to move elsewhere. With possible demolish/build scenario after that, I am just thinking we want to do this for lifestyle reasons and while I want it to be functional, to code, well built, structurally sound etc it doesn't have to be 'perfect', other than suit our needs short term.

Thanks so much for your advice we really appreciate it!

motherdough

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/42539#Comment_42539

Hi MitchellMC,

To answer your question, when we moved in the damage was already in this state (August 2019) and hasn't changed since, so I am unsure how it came to be. Yes the sandstone is flaking in places, we have had a builder we know patch parts of it in the past. We will get him around again to check it out and give us his opinion.

Thanks for your advice

Dave-1

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/107027#Comment_107027

Afternoon @motherdough

Yes you could drop the ceiling height as long as you still have 2400mm height of the room. Not sure if its worth the hassel as if you dont touch the ceiling in that time then its fine.

The floor with water pooling, once you have enclosed the room there shouldnt be an issue. If there is water still entering then that is the issue 🙂 If you dont notice it I wouldnt really worry about it. You can use a floor leveling compound to smooth out the dips. I have not used one before but it certainly sounds like the stuff works.

And certainly understand the timeline 🙂 Tho will remind you that sometimes things will still be there in 5 years 🙂 Hint to change it if it bugs you really. If you fix it now then for 5 years of peace on it compared to 5 years of it annoying you and then you timelline is extended 5 years more 🙂

Dave

motherdough

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/120733#Comment_120733

Crisp edge will need to smooth overPrior to prep workAnchor bolts in 1st holeAnchor bolts 2nd holePoured 1st holePoured 2nd holeFormwork difficult to remove on one

Bit of update to the job. We were confident the posts are still solid, and pretty sure the damage was before patio extension was erected due to water/rain getting in more often than now. Painting was done with rust oleum garage floor paint 5ish months before. Followed your previously linked post for concrete patio repair and repaired the 2 spots the patio was damaged here. Barely had time to take formwork off today after 5 days curing. Results seem pretty good but have a closer look tomorrow.

Have started breaking the overall project down into smaller parts and working through them. Next will patch the limestone foundations below this patio.

Have some follow up questions though for some stuff I haven't tackled before as in the research phase;

- For the stud wall, do we need to use treated pine? As even though the wall is raised, it is external. If so what grade?

- Best way to fix the stud wall to the patio slab? Should we use galvanised for all the fixings in stud wall? Also what material needs to run between the slab and stud wall, some kind of flashing?

- How to fix stud wall to existing timber top plate/ceiling beam. And again, what material runs between these eg any flashing?

- Any recommended flashing material around window and door frames? I was thinking to basically follow this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCDoJwKpsBg any other advice would be greatly appreciated

- How to best paint/cover the internal brick walls (most cost effective way) once wall is in ? Just paint ? We don't really think we need to plaster

- Any advice on a cladding that would match/suit the external brickwork (somewhat) that is cost effective?

Also thinking now that instead of touching the (potentially asbestos) fibro ceiling, we could lift the roof tiles and insert insulation if required.

I know quite a list of things but a bit unexperienced with this stuff so any pointers would be useful!

Thanks again

Dave-1

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/129880#Comment_129880

Afternoon @motherdough

🙂 I was scrolling through the pics and going "I know that" and "oh yeah's " 😀 Looks good and did you find that the concretemate goes off fast?

Your Questions -

- For the stud wall, do we need to use treated pine? As even though the wall is raised, it is external. If so what grade?

A - A3, you are building an external wall so I am being cautious. As the slab that its on slopes I feel that its wiser.

- Best way to fix the stud wall to the patio slab? Should we use galvanised for all the fixings in stud wall? Also what material needs to run between the slab and stud wall, some kind of flashing?

A - Now this is one I am unsure on, The bolts, yeah galvanised. As to underneath the stud wall. I am not sure becuase it is an outside patio area that slopes and has the potential for water to gather at the bottom point. I would hit up @JacobZ or @EricL to be sure.

- How to fix stud wall to existing timber top plate/ceiling beam. And again, what material runs between these eg any flashing?

A - I dont think anything flashing wise will be needed. I wouldscrew straight through the horizontal piece of the frame into that beam.

A - Another one I will let someone with more knowledge about window installs answer 🙂 @Nailbag

- How to best paint/cover the internal brick walls (most cost effective way) once wall is in ? Just paint ? We don't really think we need to plaster

A - Depending on what you want to use the room for. I dont see a problem with painting. Tho would suggest to wait until you have the walls up and see how you feel about the room as it being enclosed may change your mind.

- Any advice on a cladding that would match/suit the external brickwork (somewhat) that is cost effective?

A - I like James Hardie 4200 x 180 x 16mm Linea Weatherboard Mainly beacuse I like weatherboard styles. I think it orks well with your bricks (I have a similar style and intend to replace my metal sheeting that was used to extend the back sunroom 🙂

Also thinking now that instead of touching the (potentially asbestos) fibro ceiling, we could lift the roof tiles and insert insulation if required.

A - Be aware that Fibro sitting for years does generate dust on it. The fibers you can see are what causes the issues. I would be temped to possibly get a professional to remove it and be done with it more then lifting tiles.

Nice repair on the posts 🙂

Dave

Nailbag

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/129880#Comment_129880

Hi @motherdough

- For the stud wall, do we need to use treated pine? As even though the wall is raised, it is external. If so what grade?

A: No just standard MGP10 structural pine 90mm x 35mm for the studs and noggins, and 90mm x 45mm for top/bottom plates, headers and door openings.

- Best way to fix the stud wall to the patio slab? Should we use galvanised for all the fixings in stud wall? Also what material needs to run between the slab and stud wall, some kind of flashing?

A: Direct to slab and concrete/brick walls with masonry anchors. Flashing is after that prior to cladding

- How to fix stud wall to existing timber top plate/ceiling beam. And again, what material runs between these eg any flashing?

A: Framing nails (gun required) or pre-drill and use batten screws. Again flashing afterwards prior to cladding.

A: Perfect to follow this videos instructions as its to Aust standards

- How to best paint/cover the internal brick walls (most cost effective way) once wall is in ? Just paint ? We don't really think we need to plaster

A: Its totally up to you in this. You could paint to start with and then decide down the track based on finances on any cladding. Plasterboard though cheap, is an involved process to apply the tapes and layers of jointing compound. You could use one of the many smooth ply options and use cover strap timber trim over the joins. A fairly easy project.

- Any advice on a cladding that would match/suit the external brickwork (somewhat) that is cost effective?

A: It doesn't have to match exactly against the brick walls. You often see homes with multi-material walls as features. Weatherboards are relatively cheap, Colourbond corrugated sheets, external fibre cement sheets by Hardy come in various finishes to. Its important to decide on this before the frame goes up as there will be a setback of the frame required depending the cladding thickness to its flush to the existing brick walls.

As previously mentioned, it would be worth checking with council on your final plans to ensure what I have or any of my fellow brains-trusts suggest are within local guidelines.

Nailbag

JacobZ

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/129880#Comment_129880

Hi @motherdough,

@Dave-1 and @Nailbag have already provided some excellent advice.

One thing I would mention beyond what they have already said is that you should attach plascourse to the underside of your bottom plate. This will help prevent any moisture rising through the slab from coming into contact with the timber.

The other important point to note is that closing in your patio could have implications in terms of building approval. It is definitely worth getting in touch with your local council to ensure what you are doing is all above board.

Nice work with the concrete repair and good luck with the rest of the project.

Don't hesitate to reach out with any other questions.

Jacob

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