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How to complete bathroom renovation?

Anthony068

Hi, I am about to begin a full bathroom renovation which will involve completly demo'ing down the the studs/joists. Complete newb here and am hoping to confirm my understanding on the step by step and key materials I will need.

Stage 1 - Demo - Complete Demo and install addtional noggins etc as required.

Stage 2 - Rough In - Plumber/Electrician to rough in electricial and plumbing requirements.

Stage 3 - Sub Floor - Ensure joists are level, install either James Hardie Secura or Plywood (Not sure if this is the best plywood) & Cement Tile Underlay.

Q1 - Which would be better / cost effective to use for the sub flooring? My understanding is the James Hardie Secura only requires waterproofing for the shower area so this could save costs with waterproofing.

Stage 4 - Wall Lining - Install Villaboard on bathroom walls

Stage 5 - Shower Screed - Tiler to install shower screed

Stage 6 - Waterproofing - Waterproofer to install membrane over screed / walls. Noting if I use secura for the flooring, only the shower area and walls would need waterproofing?

Q2 - Should I waterproof under and ontop of the screed? Would this change if I were to use Seura or Plywood & Tile Underlay?

Stage 7 - Tiling - Tiler to install tiles

Stage 8 - Fit off - Fixtures fitted such as bath, frameless shower panel etc

Q3 - Is there anything I need to do during the reno for the frameless shower glass panel? From what I have read, the installer drills through the tiles to install the brackets to hold the glass panel?

Planning to start the demo over the coming weeks.

I appreciate any early advice / guidance!

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JacobZ

Hi @Anthony068,

It's very exciting to hear you are getting ready for a full bathroom renovation. I can't wait to see how things go and assist where I can along the way.

You are broadly on the right track in terms of order and tasks, but I have a couple of clarifications that should save you issues later.

On your subfloor question, both options you mentioned are commonly used, but I would be leaning towards the Secura for a couple of reasons. Structural plywood is often more cost effective when considered alone, but it must be installed and then overlaid with a cement sheet tile underlay before tiling which brings it closer in terms of material cost. But, due to the need for two separate layers, there is additional fixing, more labour, and more time on install, which will almost certainly push the cost higher than simply using Secura.

By using Secura as opposed to plywood and tile underlay, you are also removing a timber layer, which in the event of a membrane failure, could fail due to rot.

On the water proofing with Secura, it is a fibre cement sheet which under the NCC (National Construction Code), falls into the “water resistant” category for areas outside the shower. That means it does not trigger the same full waterproofing requirement as a timber floor. However, that does not mean you can skip waterproofing the rest of the bathroom. You still need a compliant waterproofing system overall, including all wall to floor junctions, and in practice most bathrooms end up with full floor waterproofing anyway to meet AS 3740 and certification requirements. Secura simplifies the build-up, but it does not eliminate waterproofing.

On the screed and waterproofing, the typical approach is to use a bonded screed with waterproofing applied over the top. That creates the actual waterproof barrier directly under the tiles and directs water to the waste. This applies regardless of whether you use Secura or a plywood plus underlay system. In some systems a membrane can be installed under the screed as well, but that depends on the specific design and who is doing the waterproofing. Although not necessary under the standards, if you'd like to explore this option it can certainly add some peace of mind and would be worth discussing with your waterproofer.

For the frameless shower screen, there is nothing major you need to preinstall structurally in most cases, but it would be good to check with your installer early on. They would be best placed to advise if there is anything you can do to simplify their process early on and I am sure that they will appreciate that consideration.

I will also tag our helpful members @Nailbag, @J-P, @Dave-1 and @JDE to see if they have any advice they can offer.

I hope this helps to answer the bulk of your questions, but if there is anything further, please don't hesitate to ask.

Jacob

Dave-1

Good Afternoon @Anthony068

Just to add to the suggestions/methods by @JacobZ

I would strongly suggest to check wether asbestos based producs have been used within your bathroom. Older bathrooms have a higher level of chance in asbestos bsed products (wall/floor) having been used. If after testing you find that there is then you will need a certified company to remove and dispose of the product.

I am yet to do a bathroom myself but know that insurance needs to see the waterproof certificate for a bathroom area to ensure that it is compliant. Depending on the plumber you engage I would chat to them about this.

Dave

Anthony068

Hi @JacobZ

Thanks for the quick response!

Do you have a link to a suitable cost effective plywood for the flooring? I would like to compare the costs. I intend on installing the flooring myself (following the installation guide) but if I can make the installation easy and more efficent, for a similar cost, I am all for it.

Regarding the screed/waterproofing, understood. I will find a waterproofer/tiler and discuss the bonded screed and waterproofing.

Anthony068

Hi @Dave-1

Thanks! Yep I have had a Asbestos inspection and testing completed already, luckily no asbestos was found!

I will add a note regarding the waterproofing certificate.

JacobZ

Hi @Anthony068,

For plywood, https://www.bunnings.com.au/2700-x-1200-x-19mm-flooring-f11-h3-plywood-treated-pine-tongue-and-groove-losp_p0390166 would be fine.

You can also use https://www.bunnings.com.au/structaflor-general-purpose-19mm-3600-x-800mm-mr-particleboard-yellowtongue-_p0148884 which is a structural chipboard flooring.

They are both fine for use as long as they have tile underlay over the top and are properly waterproofed, however being timber products in a wet are, there will always be that little bit more risk than with a full fibre cement product like Secura.

This is not to say you can't use them, I just think it is important to consider this.

Jacob

Nailbag

Hi @Anthony068

After several bathroom reno's this is how I would answer your questions. But bottom line is I don't use expensive unnecessary products that don't save money or make the or more effective time wise. Bathrooms are and should be a straight forward project, albeit a costly one even done DIY for most of it.

Q1 Personally I only ever check out the joists 20mm for a walk in shower. Drop in a piece of yellow tongue and then cement sheet the entire floor including the sides of the drop down. Then install paddle flange for the waste.

Q2 Get tiler to screed shower base, then get professionally waterproofed with certification. My tiler does this with 3 layers and then tiling

Q3 Once the bathroom is tiled, I typically install a floating vanity and stone benchtop myself. As well as cutting the holes for the tape ware and vanity bowl waste with a diamond holesaw. Then get the plumber and sparky in to fit off.

Knowing the size of the vanity I would have already pre-ordered the mirror. The return glass is then measured up and ordered. I like to go thicker glazing with no brackets. Just a wall trim and if the floor has done dead level which it always is then siliconed into place. So, no brackets. My shows have been long walk ins with no doors and mixer tap at entrance.

Images below of before and after my last reno

Nailbag

Anthony068

Hi @Nailbag

Thanks for the info!

I dont know if I would feel comfortable with notching into the joists (complete DIYer here).

The current plan is to install the James Hardie Secura, that way I only install one product and it de-risks any potential future leak, and then have a tiler install a screed in the entire shower area with the fall towards the exterior wall with the window, where the drain will be. I believe this will mean the shower area has a small "lip" into it but dont mind that too much as it would be framed by the glass panel/door.

The second shower will more than likely have a similar issue unless I do notch the joists.

I think I'll discuss it with the Tiler and worst comes to worst, hire someone to do the notches for me.

Nailbag

Hi @Anthony068

Notching the joists to drop the floor will result in a more modern finish end result for a walk-in shower. But fully understand your hesitation. Speak to the tiler to find out how much needs to come out, typically 40mm, then the cut out can go back in to make a 20mm drop. Then a decent handyman can do this for you. But the tiler might know someone too. Once thats completed the entire floor gets tile under-lay and the sides of the cut outs ready for spreading and waterproofing.

I found some progress photos from an ensuite I did that might give you a better understanding.

Nailbag

Anthony068

Hi @JacobZ @Nailbag

Just thought I'd share some progress pics (albeit slow progress).

The first pic is of the main bathroom after 95% demo (just the floor sheets and small timber frame to go). Turns out the old floor was a mix of timber and cement sheets which in areas was damaged. So will remove those and install new yellow tongue and tile underlay. (Approx 4 sheets)

The second pic is the old laundry / new 2nd bath.. turns out it has a timber floor underneath as well and its in ok condition. So I plan on just cutting out the section for the shower tray etc and then laying new tile underlay straight ontop.

Now for the rough-in.

EricL

Hello @Anthony068

Thank you very much for the update, I'm sure I'm not the only one looking forward to seeing the progress you'll be making.

Eric

Nailbag

Hi @Anthony068

Thanks very much for the update, it looks like you making excellent progress mate. Keep the updates coming.

Nailbag

Anthony068

Hi @Nailbag @JacobZ

Bit of a silly question here, I plan on only tiling half way up the wall (exlcuding the shower areas), should I still use villaboard to line the entire bathroom or is there another product I should use above the tiled area? The wall above the tiles will be painted.

Someone did mention Acquatek to me but I know the thickness is different which causes more problems/headaches.

JacobZ

Hi @Anthony068,

Anywhere you're hoping to leave the tiles half height, Aquachek would be the way to go. It can be waterproofed and tiled over, as well as left exposed for painting, so the easiest way to do it would be to simply sheet the whole wall with Aquachek.

Ideally, you should use a fibre cement product in the shower area, but Aquachek can still be used in a shower as long as it is sufficiently waterproofed in line with the relevant standards.

Let's see what @Nailbag thinks.

Jacob

Anthony068

Hi @JacobZ

That was my other thought, Aquachek outside the shower area, and villaboard inside the shower area.

My only concern is the difference in thickness and how the 2 materials will meet. 6mm vs 10mm etc

JacobZ

Hi @Anthony068,

You can always pack out or plane the studs if needs be.

It's fairly common for chippies to attach strips of masonite to the outside of studs. These https://www.bunnings.com.au/2052-x-25mm-3mm-hardboard-packer-masonite_p0242008 are manufactured for that exact purpose.

Assuming your studs are already perfectly aligned, if you packed out the shower area and plane back the other studs by 1mm each, you would be able to get them flush with eachother.

It's a bit more work, but is likely worth the effort.

Jacob

Nailbag

Hi @Anthony068

You can either follow along the lines of what @JacobZ suggested. Otherwise I always go full height same material. Blue board for tiled walls, Aquacheck for non. It's just a simpler method (for me) instead of switching materials and adding more cuts to the process.

Nailbag by each

Anthony068

Hi @Nailbag

Just curious on your thoughts of installing a tile ready shower base instead of a screed base.

I had a chat with a plumber who recommended this as the house is on stumps.

After looking into this, I could get shower bases which are 25mm and can be installed directly onto the joists, I would just need to add some noggins in between the existing joists. Then for the rest of the bathroom I can install 19mm Yellow Tongue and 6mm tile underlay so the floor would be level with the shower base. (25mm)

The only issue I can see is that the joists runs directly down the centre of where the showers are, so the drain cant be centred.

Would you recommend to have an off centre drain or would you say its better to cut the joists and reframe the joist? (Not entirely sure how that would work, noting joists are at 450mm)

EricL

Hello @Anthony068

I don't see any disadvantages to an off-centre drain, having it in that configuration also saves you from having to alter the existing joist under your floor. It would be a small bit of expense to have it altered, but it would be an expense, nonetheless. I vote going for the off-centre drain for ease of installation. Let's wait for @Nailbag's thoughts on the matter.

Eric

Nailbag

Hi @Anthony068

I don't see any issue at all installing a pre-made base and an off-set waste if thats going to be an easier solution for you. The only issue with raising the floor 19mm by adding yellow-lounge, is how that impacts the floor level outside of the bathroom? If that means there will be a step up into the room, then that would be a definite no-go from me. Notching out the floor as per my initial comments, would be the only option if you want a walk-in shower. But if the new floor height matches the exterior space, then go for it.

Nailbag

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