How to proceed with attic storage?

Hey Team, I’m wanting to add attic storage to our house but haven’t had much luck speaking with engineers - who want to take my first born for any advice provided.

This is the current timber from top plate upwards overlayed to scale on the house plans (see below for house plan dimensions). The large red beam is an LVL that spans the drop zone (3 odd metres).

I’m wanting to know if that LVL will support “floor joists” for mdf floor boards or do I need to create a new subfloor.

I’ve got creative on sketchup and thinking either steel or wood , adding another LVL to assist. The one below is steel, sliding a larger section in adjacent to the LVL to pick up the joist hanger. (If that makes sense).

Hoping someone can provide some advice - as I don’t think laying boards straight onto the ceiling joists is wise - which is the advice I’ve been given by attics storage installers! ?

This is the same as above but from above.

This is the house plans.

this is an alternative plan - with timber but only if I’m able to make use of the LVL.

this is the LVL and ceiling joist hanger to the right.

this is standing on the LVL looking across the area (pre ladder being installed).

Any help/advice would be appreciated!!

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Comments

EricL

Hello @mike13

Welcome to the Bunnings Workshop community. It's awesome to have you join us, and thank you for sharing your question about your attic storage.

Turning your attic or roof space for storage is a serious undertaking because it impacts major structural aspects of the house.

Many conditions need to be taken into account when converting the space. Your local council will have regulations regarding the use of the attic as storage. Placing a sheet of plywood will not be enough to support you and the items you will be storing. I recommend engaging the services of an engineer or builder for a quote for possible conversion costs. In this manner, it will be built to carry weight.

I'm so sorry, but I'm afraid this is a project where you will have to get the professionals involved. Depending on what the rules are in your state the alteration to your house will possibly need to be sighted and inspected by your local council. It will need engineering plans that are signed off. Your builder will also have to sign off on it.

If you need further assistance, please let us know.

Eric

MikeTNZ

@mike13,

Like EricL, I have some worries about this, you seriously need to engage a structural engineer for this sort of thing,

you may not want to hear that but there have been a couple of houses over here in NZ where the owner "just did it"

and half the house collapsed, in the second case, it bought the roof down as well.

A house is a big investment these days, you don't want this ending in tears.

mike13

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/17737#Comment_17737

Thanks for you reply - I reality I thought I may have had to face! Thanks again for you reply!

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/71557#Comment_71557

Hey mike, doing a bit of googling and came across your post

how did you end up going with the project? Your “alternative plan with timber” is currently exactly how I’m imagining doing mine.. just wondering what you ended up doing..?

cheers

MitchellMc

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/102489#Comment_102489

Welcome to the Bunnings Workshop community @shelldan08. It's brilliant to have you join us, and many thanks for your question about creating attic storage.

Let me mention @mike13 to see if they can provide an update on the project.

It's important to remember that ceilings are constructed to hold up sheeting materials and support the roof structure. They are not designed as second floors or for space to store items. I'd eco @MikeTNZ's advice to speak with someone specialising in construction and determine the required modifications to use your ceiling space for storage. Once you get that sorted you'll be free to proceed with your project.

Please let us know if you have any questions.

Mitchell

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/118255#Comment_118255

Thanks Mitchell

mines planned to go in the garage supported by a wall one end and a steel strutting beam the other with no contact to the existing joists

should be no issue?

MitchellMc

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/127511#Comment_127511

I'd need to know much more about how you are constructing the flooring to offer any opinions @shelldan08. What's supporting the flooring/new joists in between the wall and the beam if no weight will be borne by the existing joists?

Mitchell

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/133598#Comment_133598

Hi Mitchell

Appreciate the interest

plan to fix lvl‘s or 240x45 blue pines between the wall and the beam at 450 intervals and drop the flooring on top of it, it will clear the existing joists and support beams by 150mm

MitchellMc

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/137360#Comment_137360

In that case, you'd need to verify whether the wall and the steel beam can bear the weight of the new joists, flooring and stored goods, @shelldan08. You'd also need to check span tables to ensure the new joists can span the distance between the wall and the beam.

Mitchell

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/139951#Comment_139951

It’s about 3 meters, should be fine I would think but I’ll have a look into it, cheers again Mitchell

MitchellMc

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/141753#Comment_141753

Span sounds fine for that sized joist, and you're on the right track, @shelldan08! I'd just get the wall and beam assessed by a professional before you start.

Mitchell

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/143113#Comment_143113

Yeah I’ll definitely get a professional opinion, just trying to work out if it’s worth doing at all before I did that you know..

my second thought was using the existing bearers, maybe adding a couple extra and put the joists in for the floor on top of them… thoughts?

the area is 5.2x3m

MitchellMc

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/144068#Comment_144068

To maximise space, it would make sense to install additional bearers @shelldan08. They'd need to be connected to the brick wall and not just set on top of that last ceiling joist. Your flooring could be laid directly on top of the bearers if they were spaced correctly. Or, you could add those additional bearers and place joists over the top. It really will come down to the weight of the stored items.

Mitchell

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/144792#Comment_144792

Thanks a lot Mitchell, makes a lot of sense, storage is just really Christmas decorations and the like, nothing heavy

the last joist is bolted into the wall, does that change anything or would I still need to go from top of the wall

MitchellMc

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/145345#Comment_145345

You can connect to the face of the wall @shelldan08. You can't presume that the last joist is sufficiently connected to the wall to support the weight of your new flooring. Its current use is to bear the weight of those two bearers and the weight of the ceiling and joists. Add the weight of additional bearers to it, flooring and storage, and the joist could part ways with the wall. You could either add more Dynabolts to it or bolt an additional timber mounting plate to the brick wall between the existing bearers and use joist hangers to connect your new bearers to it.

Mitchell

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/145775#Comment_145775

Thanks for your advice Mitchell, really appreciate it

MikeTNZ

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/145775#Comment_145775

Hi @MitchellMc,

This is where the homework needs to go in BEFORE something like this is even planned.

Having things like RSJ's and building members like that in a structure is all very well, but if there is no tying (as in bolted flanges) of the Rolled Steel joists to substantial timber framing at each end, there is no way that that is structurally sound and will result in eventual catastrophic failure.

Think about this for a moment, all "compartments" of a structure, have lateral and vertical loads put on them, the lateral loads are from the framing that is in compression or tension.

The vertical loads are imposed by the weight of the structural members themselves, like RSJ's, heavy timber beams, etc.

All of these vertical loads need to be supported via the ground floor of the building, to prevent overloading and eventual collapse if there is not enough support.

You cannot simply add more lateral or vertical load to a structure, without addressing what will happen when more load is put on the existing stress loading of a given building.

I'm in no way a structural engineer, but I have seen the results of very poor implementation of building changes, people have been injured badly, some close to death.

Do your homework first.

Cheers,

Mike T.

MitchellMc

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/146102#Comment_146102

100% agree, @MikeTNZ. The first step to modifications, such as creating a storage or attic space above a ceiling, would be having a structural engineer assess the space.

Mitchell

shelldan08

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/146102#Comment_146102

Hi @MikeTNZ appreciate your input, it’s all early days yet, more interested in what needs to be done so I can work out what sort of money I’ll be putting into it

you said tying down an rsj, I didn’t even know that was a thing! How would that be done? Drilling into the flange and bolting it down into the brick work?

cheers

MikeTNZ

https://www.workshop.bunnings.com.au/discussion/comment/146379#Comment_146379

Hi @shelldan08,

I'm slightly confused here, where is the brickwork you're speaking about?

Do you have a photo of this?

Is this actual structural brickwork or is it a mere brick veneer on the outside of the building?

Now, normally when you have a structural steel beam fabricated for a building, it will either be RHS (rectangular hollow section) or RSJ (Rolled Steel Joist), this is in the shape like an H, either way both will have steel flanges with pre-drilled holes, arc welded to the ends of the beam, these are designed to be bolted through very substantial timber with M16 or M20 high tensile bolts and Nylock nuts to hold them in place.

Believe you me, when you start to get into engineered designs and what-not, that is where the money goes, yes the result is pleasing and safe, the onus needs to be on the latter.

Doing something like this cheap, is not an option.

Cheers,

Mike T.

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